who here likes the 2005 mustang?

[96CivicGirly]

planetSlowCar1 said:

Ah, brings back memories of that wonderful new T-Bird that got such amazing reviews, was named car of the year by Stupid Trend, sold for 10g's over MSRP, and then it was never seen again. ;D ;D

Gotta love Ford. Maybe someday they'll get it right.....nah

My guess why ya don't see any of the T-Birds is 'cuz people are probably keepin' 'um in the garage. Down the road it'll probably be a collector car. You're right though, they wanted too much for 'um.

[planetSlowCar1]

The reason you don't see them is because it was nothing more than a novelty. The car was a joke, it was ugly, slow, boring, and impractical. They sold a bizillion the first few months just from all the hype and haven't sold a single one since (exaggeration).

I think the '05 stang has more to offer than the new T Bird, but its still just a novelty (as are most retro things) and will fade fast. What Ford needs to do is get rid of its entire car line and start over.

If you want an example of a novelty car gone wrong, just look at the '04 GTO. Pontiac was forced to redo the effort because they realized a name alone can't sell a piece of trash. Now in '05 its got something different to offer, a 6.0L V8 (which sticks with the classic bigger is better GTO), good performance, and far better styling; which now gives it a legitamate marketing position rather than the blah blah detuned Vette/Gran Pricks that it was before. It also has good timeless styling that won't come and go with fads.

The new Mustang is the same thing as the '04 GTO + retro. Ford thinks they can sell cars on a name and some retro styling. But other than the styling (and the hype for that will die quickly) what would make you buy that car over the other offerings for the same price? Mustang lovers need not answer that because you guys would love it regardless and that's understandable, but it isn't getting anyone else to buy it. What Ford has now is a decent car with styling that is "in" at the moment. But who wants a decent car when there's so many great ones out there?

Give it a year (maybe 6 months) and it will revert back to the same, or more likely, worse sales than the last generation stang.

[mustangpro101]

The T-Bird and the new Mustang couldn't possibly be more different. The new Mustang caters to a large sampling of people: everyone from the generation of muscle car owners of the late 60's and early 70's, to late model Mustang fans. If you have ever been to a Mustang show, you see that it is people from a span of 16-80 who all love their 'Stangs. The T-bird started out in the 50's as direct competition to Chevy's new car, the Corvette. Over the years the T-bird lost its way and turned in to what we saw in the 70's, 80's, 90's, and so on. The new T-bird was supposed to be something that could bring back the flair of the one that debuted at the Detroit auto show in 1954. But how many people who are in the market for such a sports car now were around in 1954 to appreciate the original model? How many of these people would buy it now, sporting its low H.P. motor? Therefore, it leaves only a handful of sales to random individuals, and sales to a limited number of people who can fondly recall and embrace the '54 styling. That's why those cars are not fast movers from the car lots (literally).
You said that Ford should just scrap their entire line and start over. I am assuming you are including the Mustang. Back in the late 80's, the idea to scrap the mustang in favor of the Ford Probe became all the rage at Ford. Ford got so many letters from Mustang owners and fans that they decided to keep the Mustang around, and restyle it. How many letters must be received to change the plans of a huge automaker and force them to make a new model? Why would any automaker scrap a car that has lasted and evolved over 40 years? Why would Ford destroy a piece of its history: a car that melts old and new into something really special? The new model Mustang has been out for only a few months now, and the aftermarket is already offering superchargers, turbo kits, headers, full exhaust, shifters, suspension parts, intakes, interior dress-up...etc....etc.... What company would get rid of such a following? You said Mustang owners need not apply to this post. Well, sorry to say, but I feel that's like a punch in the face with a message attached to it: "hitting me back need not apply." Also, you should consider the history of this thread. A lot of people in here are partial to the new 'Stang, and as far as I know, I am the only Mustang owner on here. No auto maker would continue making a car that was failing and not selling. This new mustang is really a very well put together car and my advice would be to go drive one before judging the car (I have.)

[planetSlowCar1]

I agree, but you missed my point and then ended up supporting it.

Of course the new stang will be loved by nearly every mustang fan and many of them will go buy it. But that's a given. Your loyal customers will continue to buy your products as long as they're at least as good as the last one. And of course the die hard fans will continue to like it.

But I'm talking about new buyers, the people that aren't mustang fans. Those people only like it now based on the "retro" styling and the fact that its a novelty car. It has nothing amazing or different to offer and has equal or worse performance/quality than everything else in its price range.

I realize its far from the T-Bird but I was just trying to make the connection of selling a mediocore (sp?) product based on fad styling and a classic name. What Ford should have done was make something really special and different that would draw NEW people to like it. With the price of the Vette headed skyward and the increasing performance of ever cheaper import cars, I think Ford needed to step up and make an affordable, stand out car to compete, not a mediocore novelty car.

I stand by what I said about their line up. They have the most blah line up sort of Buick. The GT was another misguided attempt to make it better. Just like no one wants a high priced VW Pheaton, no one wants a high priced Ford. Its selling on novelty that will soon fad and let Ferrari, Porsche, and the other Euros take back total domination of that market. Ford needs to understand their position in the automotive market and stick with it.

Think of something like the WRX. Before it came out Subaru was a nothing in this country. If Subaru made another car to get quick novelty sales and market it to people that are already Subaru loyal, where would they be today? Instead they made something special. People that thought Subaru was a joke before, now drive one. The sales on ALL models of Subarus are now up because the LONG LASTING respect that car brought to them.

I predict it now so mark my words. The new Mustang fad will fade and it will sink to equal or worse sales than the last one. As for the rest of Fords line up (minus the excellent trucks) good luck.
That's all I got to say cuz I don't want to start a flame war. Keep in mind its just IMO and you asked for MO when you started this topic.

[mustangpro101]

I can count 4 people in this thread who have imports and like the new mustang. I bet if they drove it and had money they would buy it. You say the 05 Mustang has nothing to offer? Where can you get a 305 hp 315 tq car that costs $ 24,999? Underneath those retro skins there is a lot of technology. The new mustang runs the quarter mile in the mid 13's, pulls .89 g stock on the skid pad and is the most emissions friendly mustang ever built. This is completely stock, with after market parts they have the car in the low 12's with simple bolt ons on the stock long blocks. You didn't get my point before about loyal mustang owners supporting their products, by saying that I wasn't agreeing that ford isn't attracting new people to the car, I know of many people who are into the new Stangs and not because of the retro styling (They are not mustang fans like my self). I was also trying to show once you own one of these cars u fall in to that enthusiast category. You speak of "new buyers" but how can one persons opinion on the 05 speak for a vast America. This car has received accolades from Motor Week and other publications ever since its has hit the streets. If you want the mustang to turn in to a sports compact like the wrx, sorry buddy its not going to happen. You speak of the last gen mustang like it had horrible sales, show me these numbers. And you keep downing the cars architecture, how many mustangs have you driven? I have driven cobras, gt's v6's, the s195 body the sn95 body the foxbody and ridden in some classics. I know the cars well. And you make it seem like the 05 is nothing but an 04 with a different shell, which is totally not true.

[planetSlowCar1]

I can count 4 people in this thread who have imports and like the new mustang.
I drive a domestic, I like the new stang, I would never buy it.

If I had $25k, the new stang wouldn't even make the list of things to buy.

There's a difference between liking the car and actually being motivated enough to drop the cash on it. For the money there are about 50 other cars I would rather have.

I like the 360 Modena but I won't buy it because I don't have the money. I like the 350Z but I won't buy it because its an impractical daily driver and sucks in the snow. I like the new GTO but I won't buy it because there are far better cars for the money and Pontiac build quality is horrific. I like the EVO MR but I won't buy it because I like the STi better. I like the SRT-4 but I won't buy it because FWD sucks.

Do you get the idea?

Maybe I'm looking at it too much from a marketing stand point, but here's how I see it.

The people that buy the new stang are gona buy it as a second car, not a daily driver. Only people with money to burn can afford a weekend toy. The insurance will be too high for any young people to buy it. Old people don't like loud, rough riding cars. Anyone with money to burn, will burn that money on a better brand car, a more reliable car (admit it, ford cars suck), an equally fast but more luxureous (sp?) car, or just a faster car; unless they already like the mustang.
So Ford's main buying demographic is between the ages of 30 and 55, has a healthy paycheck, and is already a Mustang fan. That's an extremely poor target market.

About the only good thing I can see in it, is that Ford remained loyal to the Mustang fans by giving them a car that they (if no one else) will buy; rather than just scrapping it and building something new and better.

As for its performance. An EVO VIII RS costs the same or less (way less if you count price rape on the stang), runs a slightly faster quarter mile (a much faster 1/4 if both cars are not driven by professionals), is far easier to drive fast, better handling, better quality, has a better warrenty, is cheaper to insure, seats 5 comfortably, probably gets better gas mileage, is easier/cheaper to make faster, goes in the snow, and is also a livable daily driver that doesn't need to be sold to a rich guy looking for a new toy. I won't even mention the SRT-4. I'm not saying that the Mustang needs to become a sport compact, but the bar has been raised and Ford needed to step up. Instead it responded with another fad car that will be forgotten in a year. Its nothing but another stang with "retro" styling.

Again, mark my words, the hype will fade fast never to return again.

Just to finally prove my point. When will you be taking delivery of your new Mustang?

[96CivicGirly]

Well, I know I'm slightly biased about Mustangs but........there's something more to that car than just a hunk of metal. It is one of a FEW cars that has stood the test of time and has an unbelievable fan base even still. Seriously, how many cars can you guys think of that have stayed this much in the spotlight......for this long?? I know they seem expensive, but after I really thought about it.......it's actually not. There are very few cars under $20,000 these days.....so for something with that much to it, to be $25,000.....really isn't that bad.

Personally I can't stand the WRX. (I appologize if anyone on this site has one) It's just blah to me.........it's like all the work has already been done for me. There's no originality....it looks like a tuned up car.....but it comes like that from the dealer. What's the fun in that?? I mean, the power is great I'm sure.....but my friend had one and he couldn't wait to get rid of it. Now a Mustang.....that car has heart.....and soul....and history.

............But that's just my opinion..........

[mustangpro101]

"The people that buy the new stang are gona buy it as a second car, not a daily driver. Only people with money to burn can afford a weekend toy."

That's funny I see plenty of Mustangs driving around all year long. I drive my car only during the spring/summer/fall because its my own personal choice to keep her out of this crap (Not because its impossible to drive the car in the snow, but because I don't need some moron sliding in to me.) But I did drive the car through the first winter I had it, and it wasn't bad. Also if they were so bad why do they use Mustangs as rental cars in the Northeast? The new Mustang has approximately a 52/48 weight split and has totally redesigned handling and road manners. In fact Car and Driver said "The key to the Mustang’s good road manners is a thoroughly modern structure, adapted from the Lincoln LS."(Jan 2005) But to get back to the basics you have no proof that people will buy the car just as a weekend toy.

"The insurance will be too high for any young people to buy it."

Insurance depends on a lot of different factors, from driving record to coverage. Even company to company varies. I know people who drive crap box cars and pay more than I do for two cars. You compared the Evo to the Mustang and said its insurance would be much cheaper, but just because a car has 4 doors doesn't take away the fact it has almost 280 hp. Insurance companies are not stupid and realize what an evo, sti, or even a civic si are these days. I doubt that anyone of these cars is going to be $ 200 more or less to insure vs the Mustang. But to get back to basics all these cars cost more than 20k and are new, so insurance for a young person isn't exactly going to be cheap on any of them.

"Old people don't like loud, rough riding cars."

You have not driven or been in a new 05; how can you say that the car rides rough and is loud? I have driven the car and it rides smoother than any car I have driven in a long time and it has a distinctive sporty burble coming from the exhaust.

"Anyone with money to burn, will burn that money on a better brand car, a more reliable car (admit it, ford cars suck), an equally fast but more luxureous (sp?) car, or just a faster car; unless they already like the mustang."

Is this a fact? Where is the DATA to back this up? I have owned 3 fords, still have two of them (had to sell one of them to afford the other one). The Taurus was my first car and I beat the heck out of it. It never had any major problems. The Escort is my beater car and I have hauled compressors, glass cases, grid wall, auto parts, trees and plants in that car. I have driven that car through the woods, the city, on the highway and around town. I beat the piss out of that car on a daily basis and it gives me nooo grief no problems at all. I have even powershifted the tranny in the Escort and had no problems. My Mustang has over 150k on it, the previous owner has pics of all the burnout's he did with the car (his friend revealed this to me after I bought the car.) I have raced the car, driven it to very high speeds and have done my fair share of burnout's and foolishness. The Stang has given me no grief, it still runs good. These examples are not just limited to me, I know pleanty of other guys with fords and Stangs with no problems and lots of miles. As for the new Mustang Car and Driver just named the new Mustang to the 10 best in January of 2005. According to a recent press release "CHICAGO, Feb. 11, 2005 -- At the Chicago Auto Show this week, MotorWeek announced the selection of the Ford Mustang as "Best of the Year" for the 2005 MotorWeek Drivers' Choice Awards." These are only a few accolades that I have ran in to in the last few months (I don't feel like finding the rest.)

"So Ford's main buying demographic is between the ages of 30 and 55, has a healthy paycheck, and is already a Mustang fan. That's an extremely poor target market."
Where are your facts on this? If you have every been to a Mustang show you see 16-80 year old people who have mustangs and love them (I have been to tons of mustang shows.) Open a Mustang magazine its not just young people, its people that span many generations. Show me a fact that says only people between 30-55 are targeted and buy Mustangs. Thats just BS.

"About the only good thing I can see in it, is that Ford remained loyal to the Mustang fans by giving them a car that they (if no one else) will buy; rather than just scrapping it and building something new and better."

God bless them.

"As for its performance. An EVO VIII RS costs the same or less (way less if you count price rape on the stang), runs a slightly faster quarter mile (a much faster 1/4 if both cars are not driven by professionals), is far easier to drive fast, better handling, better quality, has a better warrenty, is cheaper to insure, seats 5 comfortably, probably gets better gas mileage, is easier/cheaper to make faster, goes in the snow, and is also a livable daily driver that doesn't need to be sold to a rich guy looking for a new toy."

The EVO VIII costs $ 30,699, a fully loaded GT cost $ 25,780 (My source is the autotraders car research feature). So you argument that the 05's cost more isn't true. In fact the MSRP of the fully loaded Mustang is cheaper than that of the lower model EVO. Also for you information the "price rape" as you so eloquently put it, ended once Ford dealers got the cars in stock and didn't have several customers per one car, thus meaning no one was paying over MSRP. So basically people who paid more than MSRP were people who wanted their stangs right away and didn't want to wait a few weeks for them to ship and become more avalible.

The EVO makes 276 HP and 286 FT-LBS of TQ, the Mustang makes 300 HP and 320 FT-LBS of TQ. So your claim of the EVO being more powerful is off by a stable or two of horses. You claim the Evo gets better gas milage, well your correct, this 4 cyl turbo (Turbos increase efficiency) gets 19/26 while the Mustangs 4.6 liter v8 gets 18/23. Which I think is pretty sad for a 4 cyl turbo car. The mustang also runs on regular fuel and doesn't need premium gas. So that point holds no water, both cars have very close gas mileage, if anything I would like to highlight that regular gas is cheaper than premium so I'd say that evens things out (Value wise).

You make the performance of the Mustang out like its horrible, while the car makes good power and handles better in the twisties than any other Stang ever has. Car and Driver says "Yet even with the far cushier ride, handling has improved. Not even the most recent independent-rear-suspension SVT Cobra can match the new GT's skidpad grip, which now also surpasses a Nissan 350Z Touring's, come to think of it. Pitched hard into corners, the Mustang is initially neutral, then tends toward understeer. If the push annoys you, just stab the throttle and you can induce power oversteer. Neutral, understeer, oversteer. Quite a smorgasbord. And the tail-happiness now materializes more gently, rather than in one heart-stopping twitch. Throughout, extraneous body movements are nicely damped." In other words the car handles real nice now.

You also mentioned how the EVO is easier to drive and mod (Easier to drive is a personal preference, so this fact is not valid.) Easier to mod is also relative to money and the installers skill level. Besides if you have ever worked on a stang you know how easy they are to mod, but I won't argue that against the EVO after all anyone can hook up a boost controller and crank the boost. Finally you keep talking about rich people buying the new 05, yes I am sure some rich people do, but I know pleanty of people who are not rich that have one or are getting one, once again a point that has no facts backing it up and is invalid.

"Again, mark my words, the hype will fade fast never to return again."

We don't see eye to eye, I see a car that has excellent sales over 40 years of our nations ups and downs. This car has lived through bad economies, wars, good times and bad times. This car has lasted and will last.

All you see a car that is an old Mustang remanufactured; nothing could be further from the truth. The car has a state of the art 4.6 motor, a new and well tuned suspension and other really great features. Many magazines have dubbed it the best Mustang ever.

"Just to finally prove my point. When will you be taking delivery of your new Mustang?"

What point does this prove? That currently I am a new college graduate who is working 6 full days a week at his own business? One that was started on almost no money and is doing pretty good but not quite good enough yet to afford a car payment? So right now I can't afford to buy the car with cash or pay a monthly payment. If I had the funds I would be driving the yellow gt I test drove not to long ago. I also am currently moding my Mustang and would like to complete that before I move on to another car.

Below are some cliff notes on the cars you compared,

Base MSRP on a Lancer Evolution RS $ 27,929
Base MSRP on a Lancer Evolution VIII $ 30,699 Base MSRP on a Lancer Evolution MR $ 34,699 (6 speed, wheels, suspension stuff)

19/26 MPG
276 HP
286 ft-lbs of tq
Runs On premium Gas


Base MSRP on a base 2005 Mustang GT Coupe Deluxe $ 24,600
Base MSRP on a loaded 2005 Mustang GT Coupe premium $ 25,780

18/23 MPG
300 HP
320 ft-lbs of tq
Runs on regular unleaded

96CivicGirly, all I can say is Amen:) "Heart...and Soul.. and history"

[planetSlowCar1]

"That's funny I see plenty of Mustangs driving around all year long. I drive my car only during the spring/summer/fall because its my own personal choice to keep her out of this crap (Not because its impossible to drive the car in the snow, but because I don't need some moron sliding in to me.) But I did drive the car through the first winter I had it, and it wasn't bad. Also if they were so bad why do they use Mustangs as rental cars in the Northeast? The new Mustang has approximately a 52/48 weight split and has totally redesigned handling and road manners. In fact Car and Driver said "The key to the Mustang’s good road manners is a thoroughly modern structure, adapted from the Lincoln LS."(Jan 2005) But to get back to the basics you have no proof that people will buy the car just as a weekend toy."

First off, reviews from magazines don't count. The new T-Bird was car of the year back in '01 or '02 and we've covered that already.
We're also talking about a NEW car. I see LOTS of people driving OLDER USED Mustangs all year around. Some people even use them for winter beaters. The problem comes with the fact that the car will only comfortably carry TWO people and has limited space for cargo. Its a decent sports car, its a poor daily driver as is any 2 seater (unusable back seats don't count).

"Insurance depends on a lot of different factors, from driving record to coverage. Even company to company varies. I know people who drive crap box cars and pay more than I do for two cars. You compared the Evo to the Mustang and said its insurance would be much cheaper, but just because a car has 4 doors doesn't take away the fact it has almost 280 hp. Insurance companies are not stupid and realize what an evo, sti, or even a civic si are these days. I doubt that anyone of these cars is going to be $ 200 more or less to insure vs the Mustang. But to get back to basics all these cars cost more than 20k and are new, so insurance for a young person isn't exactly going to be cheap on any of them. "

Here's why its more:

More cylinders regardless of power output = higher cost
Coupe regardless of speed = higher cost
Over 300hp = higher cost
Well know sports car name = higher cost

"Is this a fact? Where is the DATA to back this up? I have owned 3 fords, still have two of them (had to sell one of them to afford the other one). The Taurus was my first car and I beat the heck out of it. It never had any major problems. The Escort is my beater car and I have hauled compressors, glass cases, grid wall, auto parts, trees and plants in that car. I have driven that car through the woods, the city, on the highway and around town. I beat the piss out of that car on a daily basis and it gives me nooo grief no problems at all. I have even powershifted the tranny in the Escort and had no problems. My Mustang has over 150k on it, the previous owner has pics of all the burnout's he did with the car (his friend revealed this to me after I bought the car.) I have raced the car, driven it to very high speeds and have done my fair share of burnout's and foolishness. The Stang has given me no grief, it still runs good. These examples are not just limited to me, I know pleanty of other guys with fords and Stangs with no problems and lots of miles. As for the new Mustang Car and Driver just named the new Mustang to the 10 best in January of 2005. According to a recent press release "CHICAGO, Feb. 11, 2005 -- At the Chicago Auto Show this week, MotorWeek announced the selection of the Ford Mustang as "Best of the Year" for the 2005 MotorWeek Drivers' Choice Awards." These are only a few accolades that I have ran in to in the last few months (I don't feel like finding the rest.) "

There are better and more practical cars for the money. Show me one non Mustang fan that would take it over the other cars in that price range and I'll conside what you're saying. Again, reviews are meaningless.

"he EVO VIII costs $ 30,699, a fully loaded GT cost $ 25,780 (My source is the autotraders car research feature). So you argument that the 05's cost more isn't true. In fact the MSRP of the fully loaded Mustang is cheaper than that of the lower model EVO. Also for you information the "price rape" as you so eloquently put it, ended once Ford dealers got the cars in stock and didn't have several customers per one car, thus meaning no one was paying over MSRP. So basically people who paid more than MSRP were people who wanted their stangs right away and didn't want to wait a few weeks for them to ship and become more avalible."

As you so kindly looked up below, the EVO RRRR SSSS that I mentioned only costs $27k.

The EVO manages to be be faster and be worlds apart in daily drivablity and practicality. Agian, the bar has been raised. Fast cars are now something you can carry the kids, the wife, and luggage (sp?) for a week long trip in.

"Where are your facts on this? If you have every been to a Mustang show you see 16-80 year old people who have mustangs and love them (I have been to tons of mustang shows.) Open a Mustang magazine its not just young people, its people that span many generations. Show me a fact that says only people between 30-55 are targeted and buy Mustangs. Thats just BS."
We're talking about the NEW Mustang, not any other year. Lots of young kids drive '90s GT that daddy bought for them (and makes the insurance payment for). I gave my evidence in my last post and showed how I came to the conclusion based on marketing experience.

"We don't see eye to eye, I see a car that has excellent sales over 40 years of our nations ups and downs. This car has lived through bad economies, wars, good times and bad times. This car has lasted and will last. "

I agree. The car will go on and it is a popular car. But just like before you seemed to have missed my entire point.

"What point does this prove? That currently I am a new college graduate who is working 6 full days a week at his own business? One that was started on almost no money and is doing pretty good but not quite good enough yet to afford a car payment? So right now I can't afford to buy the car with cash or pay a monthly payment. If I had the funds I would be driving the yellow gt I test drove not to long ago. I also am currently moding my Mustang and would like to complete that before I move on to another car. "

It proves the point that when bench racing the car, $25g's sounds cheap, but in reality its not any cheaper than anything else out there. It also shows exactly what I wanted it to, just because you like it (or even LOVE it) doesn't mean Ford made a sale.

THE NEW STANG DOES NOT LIVE UP TO THE HYPE. Based on how people and especially magazines talk about it you would think Ford made a $15,000 McLaren beater. I can't stand overdone hype. Its not the saviour car for Ford, its not even anything amazing. Its a fad styled car that's isn't better than anything else in the catagory and in the end, is just another year for the Mustang. The huge fan base is the ONLY thing that keeps this car going.

[mustangpro101]

If magazine reviews are worthless, then everything your saying is worthless, end of story. I was trying to bring in a third party source to add to my argument, but you seem to just pull factless crap out of your ass. Then you accuse me of bench racing? I have driven the car buddy and I have driven more mustangs than you'll ever imagine. I also own one. Your last reply is just insulting to me, this argument is over and a waste of time. I have given you facts and data from personal expiriences that you just shrug off with a few BS statments. And for the sake of Dereks board lets put this to rest because I don't have time for this stupid argument.

"We're talking about the NEW Mustang, not any other year. Lots of young kids drive '90s GT that daddy bought for them (and makes the insurance payment for). I gave my evidence in my last post and showed how I came to the conclusion based on marketing experience."

I don't know where your coming from saying that, but it better not apply to me because I worked 3 jobs to buy my car and pay for insurance, mods and etc etc. I work my ass of for everything I have, and so do all of my friends who have stangs and other import/domestic cars. The only spoiled people i have seen in the last few years are frat kids at my college whose parents gave them their cars.

Derek lock this post please before it gets out of hand.